tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC March 19, 2019 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT
neighboring australia was not new zealander. he may have chosen us. we utterly reject and condemn him. new zealand is a land duty bound by a prime minister who shares her country's heart with a head set on protecting her country. what a fresh change 800,000 miles away from our country of 400 million firearms and a nine-member supreme court that can't tell an ak-47 from an 18th century musket. that's "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts now. tonight on "all in." >> so i just heard they broke into the office of one of my personal attorneys. >> the michael cohen warrant is unsealed. >> i'm going to be the personal attorney to mr. trump. >> what we're learn about the early and intense surveillance of president trump's lawyer and the questions it raises about ongoing investigations.
plus greing calls to the president to denounce white supremacist in the wake of christchurch. >> the president is not a white supremacist. i'm not sure how many times we have to say that. plus devyn nunes sues. why trump's favorite congressman is testing the first amendment by suing twitter. the latest big idea injected in the democratic primary. >> we can have national voting and that means get rid of the electoral college -- >> when "all in" starts roit now. good evening from new york i'm chris hayes. two monthinize s into his appoi of special counsel had reason to believe he was acting as an
unregistered agent of a foreign power according to a two-year search warrant released today and hundreds of pages of documents on the raid on cohen's properties. it turns out the most sensational charges, that would be the campaign finance violations pu violations purp traited to cover up the affairs were an offshoot of a a much larger vez. we still don't know what if anything that yielded. and search warrants as early as july 2017, seeking evidence that cohen committed a number of crimes including acting as an unregistered foreign agent and violating the foreign agent's registration act. they sought commune kazs, documents and other files involving essential consultants
llc. that was created to funnel the hush money payments to stormy daniels. instead what mueller was examining were another set of examples involving the llc. it's a major threat in the cohen story which remains unresolved to this day as we wait for the final mueller report. after the fbi raid we found out the shell company received millions of dollars with big corporations like at&t a korean defense firm. among those payments were hundreds of thousands from an american investment firm linked to russianall garb. he was stopped on the tarmac after getting off private plane
and questioned by federal agents who seized his electronic devices. we learned he met with cohen at trump tower to discuss u.s./russian relations just days before trump would take the oath of office. and then he and cohen later spent time together at the president's inauguration in washington. and we don't know what that's all about or why the firm started paying cohen shortly thereafter. what we do know is mueller's probe of those payments started way before the hush money investigation. in the special counsel ultimately handed off the cohen case to the southern district of new york, he did not give them the whole thing. the special counsel gave to the u.s. attorney's office. it's one of many questions that remain unanswered as we continue to wait for the special counsel
to show his cards in some form. deputy attorney general who first appointed mueller and has been on his way out is planning to stay on at the justice department a little bit longer. to break down what we learned is white reporter from nbc. and former chief spokesperson under attorney general eric holder. you've been reporting on this stufr, particularly around the inauguration. what have we learned from these cohen files? >> what we learned is cohen had a very extensive foreign lobbying operation going that mueller was aware of it and looking into it much earlier than we've previously known. we learned that columbus nova, which is the american linked form ended up paying cohen north
of $500,000. it was part of a million dollar contract signed with cohen. within ten days of trump's inauguration. another in the that's important to remember is not only did he attend trump's inauguration but he attended a candle lite dinner, very intimate event apparently for million dollar donors or over. traditionally they wouldn't have been invited to something like this but they were. and they were seated with cohen at this very intimate dinner and ten days later signed him for a million dollar contract. and there's a bank that's doing political consulting work for. often contracts will have vague language about consult as needed on topics as needed.
one thing that became clear is these companies were paying him for access, for direct access, direct consulting on specific topics, on the at&t time warner merger. he was making $100,000 in some case as month. >> so he's selling access to the president which is quite clear and what's striking to me is -- one of the in thes we've learned is fara violations usually go on unprosecuted. in this case there's a trip wire here that mueller's team is freaked out by what they're seeing going on with the bank account. >> i would suspect the fbi was already on to cohen before july 2016. he would have been one of the people they would have been investigating i would suspect as far as the 2016 campaign.
allegations that he attended a meeting in prague around the payment of the russian hacking. i would suspect that when mueller took over it was one of the targets they went after. this is the second day in a row we've seen evidence of someone in the president's inner circle being investigated for potentially being an unregistered foreign agent. remember yesterday they reported that another rnc finance chairman like michael cohen was also under investigation by the criminal division because he was referred by mueller in the same way cohen was referred to sdny. there are all these people around the president being investigated for money laundering and acting as a foreign agent for other crimes. and year only now beginning to find out things they're not necessarily charged with but have probable cause to get a search warnlt. >> there's so much focus on
russianau because russia is the foreign power that pulled off this massive criminal conspiracy sabotage. but when you look at it, the amount of foreign penetration of this campaign -- manafort and rick gates -- michael flynn who's taking undisclosed interests to turkey on election day. a gop lobbyist who's already pleaded guilty. yuv rr got all of these foreign interests trying to get in the door in trump world and it feels like we don't know the full story about all of them. >> i don't think we do. the bottom line is foreign interests pay more money because it's harder for them to gain access in the first place. i thin another thing we saw today was a portrait of cohen he would prefer we not see as he's testifying before congress, which is a guy who after ten
years of sleping after trump and cleaning after his legal messes finally was going to begin selling this kind of access -- he was becoming the kind of guy who can charge $100,000 for a couple phone calls. there was an interesting detail in one of the filings that cohen spent more than $1.5 million of his 3 million he took in 2017. but part of what he spent it on was membership at a super elite wall street club, called the core club, which has members like very private billionaires club and $50,000 initiation fee. that's one of the things that cohen put his money towards. you have a picture of a guy coming out and ready to cash in. >> on the make. there's also the other striking thing is the scope of what they got.
this first warrant, information to be disclosed by google. emails, drafts, metta data, pictures and files, search and web history, cookies, related records. they start hoovering up a lot of infoe about this guy early on. >> i know people outside the justice department are amazed when they see a search warrant documentation or a subpoena and see how much information the government is able to get. the mueller applications were the first and then you saw them go back for even more when they went back and executed the search warrant on his office. everything about his fine ansz, his relationships with foreign individuals. and eventually one thch things the justice department has the ability to do is they may start investigating one crime but it they find others, they're off to the races, which is what happened here with the campaign finance probe.
that part of the search warrant application was redacted. >> i'm going to talk about that in a second. thank you both for joining me tonight. for more on what these tell us about the overall probe, i'm joined by the former attorney for the southern district. on what matt just said, so there's an entire section. the one thing we thought was wrapped up in a neat bow was the illegal campaign donation scheme he's already pleaded guilty to. there's an entire section that's under the heading illegal campaign contribution scheme. it's 18 pages and we don't get to see it. what do you make of that? >> usually when something is redacted in a release wliek this, the yuls assumption is there's investigation still ongoing. so my take away is there's more conduct or both and the reason
we're learning about that now is these redactions were necessary in the points of view of special counsel office lawyers to protect the ongoing investigation. >> some things have been farmed out and some things haven't. we don't know what really has been retained. although we know the manafort prosecution was retained. do you have a sense of what it means ultimately that some things have been given to federal prosecutors and some things have stayed with mueller. >> two points. i agree with joyce. and they told judge howell to protect the rights of individuals. i think elliott brody, maybe ea trump jr., who are potentially involved. one of the most interesting things reading between the lines of the application is he was farming out over a year ago to
the southern district of norb. we conceive of this latter strategy to protect the probe but if that was right, he was thinking in those terms already. one, to try to protect and two, just sort affa distribution of resources. he's got a core team and they were taking on a lot. i think it's quite interesting and we didn't learn until today how early into the probe he begins to distribute materials to the other officers. >> there's the essential question about was the work michael cohen doing a violation of law? we don't kind of know what becomes of the vexalberg part of it? whether they concluded this was not chargeable? it seems unlikely. >> i think it's frankly not possible for us to know right
now. it could be they hit an evdengsiary barrier friendsh friendship -- this could be part of the reason that southern district of new yorked would not enter into a cooperation agreement. maybe it can could be this but that doesn't really feel right in this particular case. it seems they gave him too much credit that they wouldn't have give fn there was something big and looming. that again doesn't feel right. so my suspicion is we don't know what the deal is at this point. >> and it does seem to me there's a qualitative difference. the idea of people wuvorking fo foreign agents in an unregistered fashion. the former white house counsel for barack obama for his involvement in the ukrain situation.
there's a way that's done in washington that skirts the law, which is hiring the law firms you don't officially do lobbying and you don't register. it's pretty clear from the timeline and the warrant applications, they were freaked out about churngs of money going from the llc to all kinds of places to the guy who's got the ear of the president. >> no kidding. and this is going to be one of the footnotes or fallouts of this scandal. the bipartisan lobbying efforts. dave craig looks like he's in the sutd and previously tony podesta. frantic. they were looking for everything, as matt says and that's what the feds do. you have this straight-forward start with the bank records, then g mail and apple, then enough to get his email and down the line until the big search in
april of last year. so it was really a very by the book, methodical probe. everyone thought at first was cohen in prague or was that all about? and that looks to be a dry hole. >> what do you think? is there any conclusion to be drawn about where things are based on the filings of the mueller folks that we've got in terms of this release and the filings we've seen over the last few days. >> we uncconsistently hear muel is holding up shop. it's easy for folks to forget that doj is literally the largest law firm. it's a little bit artificial to talk in terms of the mueller investigation. we have national investigation in u.s. attorneys offices, in
main justice because we've learned there are pieces of this probe in the national security division the criminal divisio division it's not over. still to come congressman devin nunes is filing a lawsuit over the people super mean to him on twitter. super mean to him on twitter allergies with sinus congestion and pressure? you won't find relief here. go to the pharmacy counter for powerful claritin-d. while the leading allergy spray only relieves 6 symptoms, claritin-d relieves 8, including sinus congestion and pressure. claritin-d relieves more.
sitting united states congressman nunez is suing twiter for a quarter of a billion dollars because people made fun of him on the internet and it hurt his feelings. he's saying he has been defamed. but it makes it difficult to take the lawsuit seriously. the complaint literally reads quote in her endless barrage of tweets, devyn nunes mom atabbed every aspect of his honesty,
integrity, ethics and ability to perform his duty as a conressman. we live in a free society almost literally founded on the idea that you could make fun of politicians. last night he tried to explain his case to a friendly audience. >> so people were targeting. there were anonymous accounts that were developed. and there's not -- these accounts aren't supposed to exist. twitter says they don't have accounts that do this. so this is the first of of many lawsuits that are coming. but there were several fake news accounts with regards to the russia investigation or me and we have to hold all of these people accountable because if we don't, our first amendment rights are at stake here. >> joining me for her first interview since being named in the lawsuit is republican strategist, liz mare.
devyn g. nunes and his mom and cow. did you know this was coming? >> no. i actually was sitting at my kids' karate practice not paying attention to my phone and when i got home prepared to eat dinner i started getting phone calls from people about a lawsuit. so, no, i didn't. but here we are and i guess life moves forward, right. >> people say mean things on the internet about other things or joking or snide things. why you? why are you named in this lawsuit? >> i don't think i'm personally equipped to have any real insight into what goes on in devyn nunes mind. you would probably have to have him on your show and ask him point blank. i also am not going it get into discussing the lawsuit itself or
his pleadings. obviously i'm a dftd in this and we will have a response forthcoming. but i don't want to get into the actual lawsuit itself. very happy to talk about the first amendment implications of course. >> just so people know the kind of thing that he is saying is defamatory, that he's suing you over. this is a tweet literally a headline from the "fresno bee" and the headline is a yacht, cocane prostitutes and you tweet that with all craps holy crap. which is what he's trying to sue you for. given how much talk we've had, particularly from conservatives of the first amendment and the snowflakes on campus who don't like any counterveiling ideas, what do you think of a sitting member of congress suing a private citizen over a mean
tweet? >> i'm a libertarian republican and i believe extremely strongly in the bill of rights and our republic, not just parts of it, all of it and i hope that includes the first amendment. he's sworn an oath to support and uphold and protect the kaungs tuesday and that does include the first amendment. i do think the first amendment is incredibly important. on my read of the situation the reason that the framers put that in place is specifically to protebt the ability of citizens to criticize their government. and in this case what we appear to have is a sitting member of the u.s. house of representatives, an actual government official trying to use litigation to stifle free speech. he's trying to use if it to stifle speech. as a libertarian republican as someone who believes extremely
strongly in civil liberties, i have a problem with that, of course. >> you're going to have a lawyer up and defend yourself in this suit, right? >> the main cost, frankly has been a lot of -- and i'm not going to get into discussing what we're doing with the litigation. but personally i think it's important that everybody stands up and advocates for the first amendment and not selectively but across the board. i would strongly urge anyone if you agree with me and agree that civil liberties are important, please consider donating to the swamp accountability project which is probably going to be paying for part of my legal fees. >> i would also say you can do your part by tweeting mean things at public figures or retweeting headlines because i
believe the first amendment for tects that and it would be crazy to watch them whac-a-mole on that. >> thank you so much. coming up. why -- coming up why -- ha-ha. coming up why is this man refusing to distance himself from white supremacists and nationalists in the wake of the slaughter friday? nationalists i slaughter friday
your daily dashboard from fidelity. a visual snapshot of your investments. key portfolio events. all in one place. because when it's decision time... you need decision tech. only from fidelity. itreat them all as if,. they are hot and energized. stay away from any downed wire, call 911 and call pg&e right after so we can both respond out and keep the public safe.
zealand, president trump and prime minister spoke on the phone. >> he asked what level of support the united states could provide. my message was sympathy and love for all muslim communities. he acknowledged and agreed. >> if he has offered the muslim community that sympathy and lover, we have not seen it. she made a point to put on a hijob and comfort families, he put we stand in solidarity with new zealand. he's played a wink, wink, nudge, nudge game with white nationalists and supremacists such that the white nationalest still wrote he saw the president as a symbol of quote renewed white identity and common purpose. he wrote that and now democrats are calling out donald trump's behavior more than ever before. and alexandria ocasio-cortez
writing what the president said was i will look the other way. and contributing writer. raj, it's not that the president has done anything to praise what happened, obviously. and he gave a pree.ry tweet about it. but what do you make of the notable silence from him in the wake of this massacre? >> it's the feature, not bug. let's not forget when there were white supremacists, kkk and the altright, jews will not replace us, donald trump responded by saying there are very fine people and both sides are to blame. it's been five days, chris and donald trump has yet to use the "t" word, terrorism, to describe it. he has yet to reach out the the victims. in fact i wish he had half as much concern for the rest of
americans, including muslims, as he does defending judge pirro. i wish he would attack the number one domestic terror threat in america, which are white supremacists, the number one source of domesticb terror plots with as much gusto and passing that he attacked john mccain, the press, snl and robert mueller. but he has not done that and he hasn't done it throughout his presidency. it's because i think donald trump is racist. he's not racially charged or motivated or has racial flair ups. he has promoted and mainstreamed a white supremacist conspiracy theory to win the elections, which is that george sorros was funding the kaurb van. the same words used by the australian terrorists who killed 50 people last week. >> 23 i'm not mistaken he used
the word instriegz describe immigration in the united states in front of cameras. you cover corners of the internet steeped in white supremacy. what is the relationship between the way the president refuses to condemn them and how they view trump and trump as an icon to them? >> saying basically all that rhetoric was right about invaders. both referenced invaders. back in aubt before midterms and the shooter in new zealand as well. why isn't he doing something about all of the stuff he's talking about, right? and when you lead to tweets, every day it's even more and more. so when people come together and spend their entire day to decipher these tweets, there are regular people that do it another.
when they get driven down the rabbit holes to over and over again hear these messages, some of them go even further and say the race war is coming. why does ncht somebody do something about it and that's where people -- that's how they get egged on to carry out these attacks. >> such a good point that language thrbs invaders language, which is the language the synagogue shooter used as well when he's talk about the caravan. tlirlts language this man uses as well. we, the pure white gen tiles are being invaded by them, the jewish or muslim other. this is what nick mulvaney said this weekend. i want you to respond. >> you've seen the president stand up for religious liberties and individual liberties. the president is not a white supremacist.
i'm not sure how many times we have to say that. and he says the president has no bigotry against muslims. it feels like gas lighting. >> it's 2019. you can't gas light me. because i remember the president saying i think islam hates us. total and complete ban on muslims until we can figure out what is going on. i remember him saying he saw a tape on television off the muslims on 9/11. i'm call you out. show me the tape. so this is a president who's anti-muslim. again i want to say this. he mainstreamed a white supremacist talking point in october. the jews, led by george sorros funding the caravan of rapists, criminals, muslims and mexicans. that is the number one conspiracy theory that the rest of us are being used by the jews
to weaken the white races, which was used by the shooter who killed 50 people last week. you got to call him out and the republican leaders who mainstreamed him. that includes kevin mccarthy. do you stand by president trump's views of the white supremacist conspiracy theory? reporters need to ask until they answer. >> i never know how to take the temperature. the internet provides crazy subcommunities. so i never know how to ganl the scope of the fenonnonof white nationalists. is this a very small group of people or is there something particularly metastasizing here? >> i think you can look at the video views and see it's a million, sometimes 10s of millions for specific videos and they are completely divorces from reality. absolutely 100% hillary clinton is eating kids and stuff.
those have tens of mill yjz of views on the platforms. does that mean everybody is soaking it in and sayingilities it's correct, no. people can believe whatever they want. are they act on this? we see this rise once a munt now basically. we see an awful thing happen. last week a cuban nonbelieve murdered his brother, right? we know within 15 minutes it's been ginned up by the internet in some capacity and that's the sort of thing that's brand new and we need to learn how to stop it. coming up the latest big idea making waves in the democratic primary. what to make of elizabeth warren's call. of elizabeth warren's call.
but i never had the time and then i tried babbel. - [announcer] babbel, the number one selling language learning app in the world. - you're learning phrases that you can use right away in real life conversations. after just four weeks i was feeling confident enough to have simple conversations in french. (speaking in french language) now i'm speaking french. - babbel, the quick way to get conversational in a new language. try babbel free today, go to babbel.com or download the app.
we really pride ourselves >> ton making it easyautoglass, to get your windshield fixed. >> teacher: let's turn in your science papers. >> tech vo: this teacher always puts her students first. >> student: i did mine on volcanoes. >> teacher: you did?! oh, i can't wait to read it. >> tech vo: so when she had auto glass damage... she chose safelite.
with safelite, she could see exactly when we'd be there. >> teacher: you must be pascal. >> tech: yes ma'am. >> tech vo: saving her time... [honk, honk] >> kids: bye! >> tech vo: ...so she can save the science project. >> kids: whoa! >> kids vo: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace ♪ thing one tonight. donald trump is no fan of the rat race. instead of waking up and going to work every morning like a square, "axios" reported he's spend 60% of his time in scheduled executive time. this is where he makes phone calls and tweets and tweets and tweets. in the 12-hour period this sunday alone he sent out 29 different tweets. just a day after someone slaughtered 50 in a mosque, he
attacked john mccain, complained about "saturday night live," which was a rerun. i mean come on. when the term executive time is used, ib am generally working and not relaxing. in fact i probably work more hours than any past president and his adult sonn couldn't agre more. >> he's the hardest working person in the world. whether it be generalests, special guests or foreign leaders. i mean the guy is the hardest working person there is. >> just generals and economists. grand central it turns out he's not the only one with an unstructured work environment. >> he said that he's pathological and that he's got basically pathological disease.
i don't want a person that has pathological disease. so he's a pathological, damaged, temper a a problem. >> that pathological member of trump's cabinet. now i'm ready to focus on my project. ♪ ♪ this is why we plan. ♪ ♪ you never cease to amaze me, maya. see how investing with a j.p. morgan advisor can help you. visit your local chase branch. so let's promote our spring ftravel deals, on choicehotels.com like this: (sneezes) earn one free night when you stay just twice this spring. allergies. or.. badda book. badda boom. book now at choicehotels.com.
you might or joints.hing for your heart... but do you take something for your brain. with an ingredient originally discovered in jellyfish, prevagen has been shown in clinical trials to improve short-term memory. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. donald trump's choice of ben carson to lead the department of house oing and urban development was, shall we say unconventional. the neurosurgeon turned down the job because dr. carson feels he has no government experience. he's never run a federal agency. but then carson ultimately took the job. he defended buying a $31,000 dining set for his office by blaming his wife. his signature hud initiative has gone nowhere. he said there were more complexities in hud than brain surgery.
in 2017 he only met with senior staff once a week and only worked a full friday and cut out early to fly down to his $4.3 million florida mansion for the weekend. and they provide affordable housing to low income americans. no words if he knows this time around how much he's planning to cut >> how much from housing vouchers? >> rather than go through a quiz on all the numbers -- >> it's not a quiz. i have the time ask you questions about things you should have knowledge of. >> i don't want to open the book and look at the numbers. >> you choose not to say how much you're cutting from housing vouchers or community grants. >> i want to talk -- >> you don't get to talk about what you want to today. you get to talk about what i want you to talk about. t what i want you to talk about
or psoriatic arthritis, little things can be a big deal. that's why there's otezla. otezla is not an injection or a cream. it's a pill that treats differently. for psoriasis, 75% clearer skin is achievable, with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of plaques. for psoriatic arthritis, otezla is proven to reduce joint swelling, tenderness, and pain. and the otezla prescribing information has no requirement for routine lab monitoring. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression.
tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. tell your doctor about your medicines and if you're pregnant or planning to be. ready to treat differently with a pill? otezla. show more of you. when you rent from national... with a pill? it's kind of like playing your own version of best ball. because here, you can choose any car in the aisle, even if it's a better car class than the one you reserved. so no matter what, you're guaranteed to have a perfect drive. [laughter] (vo) go national. go like a pro. see what i did there?
and these are just two snap shots of our new normal in the era of climate change which most models show will create more extreme weather events. what that means for planet, eve industry, every home, every hearth on earth is driving climate to the top of the 2020 agenda leading to froprotests. how we respond to climate crisis is the central issue central debate of our time. and we're pleased to announce a special event to talk about the major policy proposal to reshape our discussion, the green new deal. we're going be hosting an hour long prime time special about the urgent need to meet the climate crisis head on with alexandr alexandria ocasio-cortez, and we're going to do it in our shared home of the bronx. lots more in the coming days. tx lots more in the coming days
and i recently had hi, ia heart attack. it changed my life. but i'm a survivor. after my heart attack, my doctor prescribed brilinta. it's for people who have been hospitalized for a heart attack. brilinta is taken with a low-dose aspirin. no more than 100 milligrams as it affects how well brilinta works. brilinta helps keep platelets from sticking together and forming a clot. in a clinical study, brilinta worked better than plavix. brilinta reduced the chance of having another heart attack... ...or dying from one. don't stop taking brilinta without talking to your doctor, since stopping it too soon increases your risk of clots in your stent, heart attack, stroke, and even death.
brilinta may cause bruising or bleeding more easily, or serious, sometimes fatal bleeding. don't take brilinta if you have bleeding, like stomach ulcers, a history of bleeding in the brain, or severe liver problems. slow heart rhythm has been reported. tell your doctor about bleeding new or unexpected shortness of breath any planned surgery, and all medicines you take. if you recently had a heart attack, ask your doctor if brilinta is right for you. my heart is worth brilinta. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. uh, well, this will be the kitchen. and we'd like to put a fire pit out there, and a dock with a boat, maybe. why haven't you started building? well, tyler's off to college... and mom's getting older... and eventually we would like to retire. yeah, it's a lot. but td ameritrade can help you build a plan for today and tomorrow. great. can you help us pour the foundation too? i think you want a house near the lake, not in it. come with a goal. leave with a plan. td ameritrade. ♪
we got to abolish the electoral college. the way democracy works is when our elected officials comes to ask everybody, and that means getting rid of the electoral college. >> senator elizabeth warren is getting big applause for her proposal do away with the electoral college. in 2016 hillary clinton won almost 3 million more votes than donald trump. in 2000 al gore won half a million more votes than george w. bush. because of the electoral college, of course, they both lost the election. quote, extremely wild that republicans have won the popular vote exactly once in lifetime. joining me now to talk about a fellow at the harvard kennedy
school of government. what do you think of the electoral college life? >> oh, i love it. here's what i think about the line because here's what i think about women. i think it's fantastic elizabeth warren is forcing everybody in the field to have real conversations about the tangible way our systems, our structures in government work. >> there's two things that happen. there's the substantive conversation about policy, i'm going to pass this bill or not. and then there's this conversation happening about the deeper democratic structure of the country. and i think there's a lot of energy there among democrats for that kind of deeper conversation. >> right. and it's also, i mean, it's a deeper conversation in terms of the structure of the government but it's also -- it is -- there's been an interesting change over the years in terms of democrats. not only i think has the
democratic party from a policy perspective become more aggressively to the left but there's almost like a partisanship, like a willingness to engage in a fight and hold the republican party to account for their attacks on the structure of our government and our body politic writ large which i think is also week wale unique -- >> i totally agree, but of course the concern is that's a race to the bottom. you saw people have been talking about like court packing, right, and the concern is everyone starts to pull at the same thread and you end up unraveling. >> i don't think it's a race to it bottom if you have a real conversation about voting rights. i think the structural piece to me is what we often miss with platitudes. and what's going to happen come summer is you're going to see elizabeth warren get out and there say here's my ideas how we
make america work and what is fair and a lot of other candidates are not going to have a lot of substance around that. >> i think that's correct. but i also say, like, i acknowledge that there is a sort of like bringing a knife to a knife fight. >> yes. >> and the fact is that for decades the democrats have said we're not going to bring that knife to the knife fight, and that strategy hasn't worked either. so often what a bully needs is a to be shown this works two ways. so what's good for the goose is good for it gander. if you want to stop that race to the bottom one of the ways is to indicate ware going to win. >> that's an interesting idea when it comes to things hike filibuster and court packing, strategically going after it yourself gives yourself a mutually sort of destruction -- >> it begins to put stakes on --
>> but here's my mush back on that. i 100% believe one person, one vote, popular elections to determine the president. you can't do anything about it. you're going to get a constitutional amendment? in some ways this is the fundamental problem is the structures themselves is so ossified the mismatch between what's being said, which is, hey, how about the winner get to be president. >> 270 essentially, you've got to get enough states involved in this and you've got to get enough of those states lined up where you get to 270 in terms of the electoral college. >> colorado just did this, by the way. >> and there's actually several of them lining up right now. not at 270 just yet, but at 200. i don't think we're hesitant to kind of go big and go bold just because it seems like, you know, the ark is really, really long. i would be not surprised if 6,
12 months from now we see a bunch of other states go onboard. >> but even if you don't get to the national popular vote combat my point is that you're indicating that we're holding you to account, that we're aware of what's going on, and we're aware of the inequities and so that it may not be this solution, it may be another solution, but the party is ready to make that. >> it lets us actually start to say this person, donald trump who was just elected is not legitimate. >> to me it bigger thing here which is what the crux of the crisis is majority rule. and in 30 years we've had a lot of not majority rule. a couple of quick things before we go, you can catch me on the late show with stephen colbert and listen to our latest
podcast, talking about the crucial work that goes into crass roots organizing and why it's key to any 2020 democratic hopeful. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening, rachel. chris, i am super excited about your green new deal town hall thing. >> i am, too. it's in the bronx, in the hospital i was born in which is in alexandria ocasio-cortez's district. >> i have to find about these things watching tv. jeez, you know, i work down the hall. >> well, you're welcome to come if you want. although you got to a show to do. thank tuesday you at home for joining us this hour. we've got a lot to get to tonight. you can always tell that when my desk is piled up like this before we even started talking about anything. but we're going to start with something that arrived in to